RE: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do ja ck , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?

[Colocator User <minivend@twu.net>]

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, mike wrote:

> Colocator User (Mr. User)
> There are a few expressions that I think could cover the attitude here,
> but the one that comes closest is:  Don't look a gift horse in the
> mouth.  It appears that our collegue, Mr.User would simply complain
> about the weight if given a large bag of gold.  I repeat my original
> post, hopefully with a bit more palatable wording.  What you require is
> an education, or experience in the following areas: Network
> administration (linux or NT will work here), Internet site hosting for
> the WWW (a good book on apache or IIS4.0 will do fine), the Perl
> Development Kit (for Unix or NT depending on your system) and finally
> database administration (look for a thick book which covers relational
> database design, theory and normalization.)  We all do this for a

Just who do you think you are dealing with? Let me get something
perfectly clear with you and with all of the other misguided folks who
have been busy flinging insults and idiotic assumptions at me rather than
acknowledging that yes, the documentation DOES bite fat donkey cujones: I
HAVE an education (for your information, I am an honors student on a
national merit scholarship, I scored 1540 on the SAT and I
graduated--almost effortlessly--fourth in my high school class. IN A GOOD
HIGH SCHOOL.), I teach a bloody ****ing CLASS on Linux, I've been using
Linux since before some of the people on this list even knew that
operating systems other than DOS/Windoze could run on an x86, I
administrate an Apache server that hosts dozens of sites, and I use Perl
on a day to day basis. And what exactly is the "Perl Development Kit"?
That sounds like some pathetic attempt to imitate Microsoft's glittery
pseudo-computer-language. (It's not "development", it's "programming";
they're not "solutions", they're "products" or "services", etc. etc. etc.
Call a rose a goddamned rose!)

> living, so while we can provide guidance and support, don't expect us to
> set up your system for you.  If you're having that difficult a time,

Oddly enough, I don't want anyone to set up anything for me. The question
I asked-- and I can't see how nobody understands this-- is how to be able
to execute arbitrary Perl code. _A_R_B_I_T_R_A_R_Y_. Doesn't it seem a
little odd that in a package almost entirely written in Perl, you have to
use some idiotic subset of the language when you want to use YOUR OWN
Perl?

And what's more, the attitude that you guys seem to take towards learning
a new program absolutely, positively SUCKS. My attitude is-- "Here, here
is a reasonable method of doing things that works in the programs I know
and love. How do I utilize that method here?" The attitude of those in
this group seems to be "well, it's free, so let's put up with the fact
that we have to learn whole new ways of doing things." No one seems to
CARE that-- read and understand-- YOU CANNOT USE STRAIGHT PERL IN A PERL
PROGRAM! Doesn't anyone seem to grasp how incredibly stupid that is?
Doesn't anyone care? I've been writing stuff in Perl for quite a while
now; I am _NOT_ interested in learning "Perl Lite" now. I want to use
Perl. Perl! I want to be able to go "print "Hello world.";" and have the
program put "Hello world." on the page. I don't want to have to start
using "return" instead of "print"; I don't want to have myself limited to
using one return statement rather than multiple print statements.

You guys are right that MiniVend is
free and that whoever wrote the thing did a great  service for the world,
but the continuing lack of decent documentation is an outrage, and needs
correcting. It's like if a doctor decided to provide free abortion
services, but used only a coat hanger, even though he could have obtained
proper surgical tools quite easily. The free stuff is great, but do it
RIGHT, for crying out loud. Sure, you're not obligated to. Sure, you're
not obligated to do anything for free in the first place. But when things
can be made better-- in this case, by recruiting those willing and able to
produce top-notch documentation-- you should have the decency to do so,
don't you think?

> stop, regroup and come back after a week.  It usually helps to get your
> mind unwound from the project for a while instead of flaming everyone
> and thier brother for a decided lack of knowledge on your part.  Only
> time and experience can teach you what you need to know.
> I apologize if my original answer back seemed a bit brash, its easy for
> a $75/hr programmer to forget his $10/hour days.  Remember though, we
> didn't work our way to the big bucks by incessantly pissing off people
> that could help us (please pardon the vulgarity, but it fits the
> situation.)  You would be wise to be very careful who you anger in this
> business.  There will come a time when you will need your site

To not be angry about the ridiculous attitudes taken by so many coders on
so many issues would be to lie about who I am; to avoid angering people in
this AREA (I will NOT call it a "business", for that term disgusts me)
would be to kiss butt, which I am not prepared to do in the area of
computing-- the one art and science that I care so much about.

> critiqued, and as a web-site manager that's been hit by a hacker

The term is "cracker", not "hacker". Get it straight. A "hacker" is a
computer enthusiast. The popular culture has mutated the term's meaning.

> recently, I can tell you that you never know who your tone is upsetting.
> Perhaps it would be wise of you to take a class on anger control (they
> offer them free at most community centers.)
> 
> vandy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colocator User [mailto:minivend@twu.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 4:28 PM
> To: mike
> Cc: minivend-users@minivend.com
> Subject: RE: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do
> ja ck , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?
> 
> 
> I make $10 an hour. Do I look like I can spare $15,000? I'm an advocate
> of the open-source world and I hate American capitalism (the sort of
> thinking that produced the idea of a $15,000 piece of software). And it
> bothers me when people who produce good software produce horrible
> documentation. If you care enough to produce good software, care enough
> to
> document it well, or have someone do it for ya, surely?
> 
> On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, mike wrote:
> 
> > Hmm.. I'm not going to answer him.  Sorry, but I take flames to this
> > group personally.  I say let him pay 15 grand for a commercial program
> > that does what this one does.
> > 
> > vandy
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Colocator User [mailto:minivend@twu.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 1:16 PM
> > To: minivend-users@minivend.com
> > Subject: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do
> jack
> > , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?
> > 
> > 
> > ******    message to minivend-users from Colocator User
> > <minivend@twu.net>     ******
> > 
> > Hey there MiniVend gurus--
> > 
> > 	Just started with the program, and I'm trying to utilize a Perl
> > script I've written from within a MiniVend page. The [perl] tag is a
> > cruel
> > joke; you can't use backticks (due to that stupid Safe module, which
> I'd
> > rather not turn off if I don't have to) or even print statements
> > (!!!!!);
> > all you can use seems to be setting and returning variables, which is
> > unacceptable. I need more than that!
> > 
> > 	I tried to define the Perl I want as a user tag. It did squat.
> > First of all, the syntax listed on the Web site for defining a user
> tag
> > is
> > horrible-- MiniVend chokes on it when starting up. Secondly, when I
> > finally DID find a way of arranging the damned curly-braces so that it
> > wouldn't puke on my user tag, the user tag did SQUAT!
> > 
> > 	They say the best way to learn is by example. Could someone give
> > me an example-- or more than one example-- of a way to display the
> > output
> > of:
> > 
> > print "Hi there";
> > 
> > ...in a MiniVend page?
> > 
> > 	Flames or "RTFM"s will be passed on to /dev/null. Please give me
> > a
> > real answer.
> > 
> > 	Incidentally, the MiniVend FAQ ***SUCKS***. Perhaps something
> > more
> > like the Perl FAQ is in order-- where it's more of an "all questions
> > we've
> > been asked that have a simple--or even a not-so-simple-- answer" list
> > than
> > a "frequently asked questions" list. The MiniVend FAQ only answers the
> > simplest of stupid questions...
> > 
> > 
> > -
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>