RE: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do ja ck , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?

[<austad@fallon.com>]

Please give it a rest.

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Colocator User wrote:

> ******    message to minivend-users from Colocator User <minivend@twu.net>     ******
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, mike wrote:
> 
> > Colocator User (Mr. User)
> > There are a few expressions that I think could cover the attitude here,
> > but the one that comes closest is:  Don't look a gift horse in the
> > mouth.  It appears that our collegue, Mr.User would simply complain
> > about the weight if given a large bag of gold.  I repeat my original
> > post, hopefully with a bit more palatable wording.  What you require is
> > an education, or experience in the following areas: Network
> > administration (linux or NT will work here), Internet site hosting for
> > the WWW (a good book on apache or IIS4.0 will do fine), the Perl
> > Development Kit (for Unix or NT depending on your system) and finally
> > database administration (look for a thick book which covers relational
> > database design, theory and normalization.)  We all do this for a
> 
> Just who do you think you are dealing with? Let me get something
> perfectly clear with you and with all of the other misguided folks who
> have been busy flinging insults and idiotic assumptions at me rather than
> acknowledging that yes, the documentation DOES bite fat donkey cujones: I
> HAVE an education (for your information, I am an honors student on a
> national merit scholarship, I scored 1540 on the SAT and I
> graduated--almost effortlessly--fourth in my high school class. IN A GOOD
> HIGH SCHOOL.), I teach a bloody ****ing CLASS on Linux, I've been using
> Linux since before some of the people on this list even knew that
> operating systems other than DOS/Windoze could run on an x86, I
> administrate an Apache server that hosts dozens of sites, and I use Perl
> on a day to day basis. And what exactly is the "Perl Development Kit"?
> That sounds like some pathetic attempt to imitate Microsoft's glittery
> pseudo-computer-language. (It's not "development", it's "programming";
> they're not "solutions", they're "products" or "services", etc. etc. etc.
> Call a rose a goddamned rose!)
> 
> > living, so while we can provide guidance and support, don't expect us to
> > set up your system for you.  If you're having that difficult a time,
> 
> Oddly enough, I don't want anyone to set up anything for me. The question
> I asked-- and I can't see how nobody understands this-- is how to be able
> to execute arbitrary Perl code. _A_R_B_I_T_R_A_R_Y_. Doesn't it seem a
> little odd that in a package almost entirely written in Perl, you have to
> use some idiotic subset of the language when you want to use YOUR OWN
> Perl?
> 
> And what's more, the attitude that you guys seem to take towards learning
> a new program absolutely, positively SUCKS. My attitude is-- "Here, here
> is a reasonable method of doing things that works in the programs I know
> and love. How do I utilize that method here?" The attitude of those in
> this group seems to be "well, it's free, so let's put up with the fact
> that we have to learn whole new ways of doing things." No one seems to
> CARE that-- read and understand-- YOU CANNOT USE STRAIGHT PERL IN A PERL
> PROGRAM! Doesn't anyone seem to grasp how incredibly stupid that is?
> Doesn't anyone care? I've been writing stuff in Perl for quite a while
> now; I am _NOT_ interested in learning "Perl Lite" now. I want to use
> Perl. Perl! I want to be able to go "print "Hello world.";" and have the
> program put "Hello world." on the page. I don't want to have to start
> using "return" instead of "print"; I don't want to have myself limited to
> using one return statement rather than multiple print statements.
> 
> You guys are right that MiniVend is
> free and that whoever wrote the thing did a great  service for the world,
> but the continuing lack of decent documentation is an outrage, and needs
> correcting. It's like if a doctor decided to provide free abortion
> services, but used only a coat hanger, even though he could have obtained
> proper surgical tools quite easily. The free stuff is great, but do it
> RIGHT, for crying out loud. Sure, you're not obligated to. Sure, you're
> not obligated to do anything for free in the first place. But when things
> can be made better-- in this case, by recruiting those willing and able to
> produce top-notch documentation-- you should have the decency to do so,
> don't you think?
> 
> > stop, regroup and come back after a week.  It usually helps to get your
> > mind unwound from the project for a while instead of flaming everyone
> > and thier brother for a decided lack of knowledge on your part.  Only
> > time and experience can teach you what you need to know.
> > I apologize if my original answer back seemed a bit brash, its easy for
> > a $75/hr programmer to forget his $10/hour days.  Remember though, we
> > didn't work our way to the big bucks by incessantly pissing off people
> > that could help us (please pardon the vulgarity, but it fits the
> > situation.)  You would be wise to be very careful who you anger in this
> > business.  There will come a time when you will need your site
> 
> To not be angry about the ridiculous attitudes taken by so many coders on
> so many issues would be to lie about who I am; to avoid angering people in
> this AREA (I will NOT call it a "business", for that term disgusts me)
> would be to kiss butt, which I am not prepared to do in the area of
> computing-- the one art and science that I care so much about.
> 
> > critiqued, and as a web-site manager that's been hit by a hacker
> 
> The term is "cracker", not "hacker". Get it straight. A "hacker" is a
> computer enthusiast. The popular culture has mutated the term's meaning.
> 
> > recently, I can tell you that you never know who your tone is upsetting.
> > Perhaps it would be wise of you to take a class on anger control (they
> > offer them free at most community centers.)
> > 
> > vandy
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Colocator User [mailto:minivend@twu.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 4:28 PM
> > To: mike
> > Cc: minivend-users@minivend.com
> > Subject: RE: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do
> > ja ck , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?
> > 
> > 
> > I make $10 an hour. Do I look like I can spare $15,000? I'm an advocate
> > of the open-source world and I hate American capitalism (the sort of
> > thinking that produced the idea of a $15,000 piece of software). And it
> > bothers me when people who produce good software produce horrible
> > documentation. If you care enough to produce good software, care enough
> > to
> > document it well, or have someone do it for ya, surely?
> > 
> > On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, mike wrote:
> > 
> > > Hmm.. I'm not going to answer him.  Sorry, but I take flames to this
> > > group personally.  I say let him pay 15 grand for a commercial program
> > > that does what this one does.
> > > 
> > > vandy
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Colocator User [mailto:minivend@twu.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 1:16 PM
> > > To: minivend-users@minivend.com
> > > Subject: [perl] tag is a cruel joke, and user-defined tags don't do
> > jack
> > > , squat. HELP! How do I use Perl!?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ******    message to minivend-users from Colocator User
> > > <minivend@twu.net>     ******
> > > 
> > > Hey there MiniVend gurus--
> > > 
> > > 	Just started with the program, and I'm trying to utilize a Perl
> > > script I've written from within a MiniVend page. The [perl] tag is a
> > > cruel
> > > joke; you can't use backticks (due to that stupid Safe module, which
> > I'd
> > > rather not turn off if I don't have to) or even print statements
> > > (!!!!!);
> > > all you can use seems to be setting and returning variables, which is
> > > unacceptable. I need more than that!
> > > 
> > > 	I tried to define the Perl I want as a user tag. It did squat.
> > > First of all, the syntax listed on the Web site for defining a user
> > tag
> > > is
> > > horrible-- MiniVend chokes on it when starting up. Secondly, when I
> > > finally DID find a way of arranging the damned curly-braces so that it
> > > wouldn't puke on my user tag, the user tag did SQUAT!
> > > 
> > > 	They say the best way to learn is by example. Could someone give
> > > me an example-- or more than one example-- of a way to display the
> > > output
> > > of:
> > > 
> > > print "Hi there";
> > > 
> > > ...in a MiniVend page?
> > > 
> > > 	Flames or "RTFM"s will be passed on to /dev/null. Please give me
> > > a
> > > real answer.
> > > 
> > > 	Incidentally, the MiniVend FAQ ***SUCKS***. Perhaps something
> > > more
> > > like the Perl FAQ is in order-- where it's more of an "all questions
> > > we've
> > > been asked that have a simple--or even a not-so-simple-- answer" list
> > > than
> > > a "frequently asked questions" list. The MiniVend FAQ only answers the
> > > simplest of stupid questions...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -
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> > > 
> > 
> 
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